S8, EP2: Faisal Shah 3D artist, animator and skateboarder

On today's episode, I chat to Faisal Shah. 

Faisal is a 3d artist and animator, with a passion for Skateboarding!

We chat about Faisal's career, his passions and his inspirations. We also tackle some sensitive subjects, including race. 

You can hear Faisal's drive for his business throughout our chat. 

Find Faisal here: 

Instagram: @faisaltreshah

Web: www.faisalshah.co.uk

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@FaisalShah3D

Chapters

• 0:44 Meeting 3D Artist Faisal Shah
• 1:49 Breaking Reality Through Digital Creation
• 9:26 Creative Problem Solving for Clients
• 17:34 Skate the World: Finding Community
• 32:07 Freelancing vs Business Ownership
• 47:08 The Value of Creative Experience
• 1:01:36 Navigating Blender and 3D Software
• 1:18:18 Personal Value as a Creative Professional
• 1:24:42 Overcoming Barriers in Creative Business

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:22

Hello and welcome to Stylish Chats with Creatives. Today on the podcast I'm chatting to Faisal Shah. He's from West London and he's a 3D artist, an animator and a filmmaker. And we actually connected on Chris Wright's Freelancer Tea Room because I did a bit of a shout out for guests on the podcast and you reached out straight away and we've just had a lovely little preamble and I think I'm dead excited for this interview. I think you're going to be really fun, so no pressure.

Speaker 2: 0:52

Duly noted.

Speaker 1: 0:56

So welcome to the show. Thank you so much for coming on, for having me. I cannot wait to dig into your creative career and I think there's going to be plenty of layers to this uh interview as well. So probably a big question first, what is a 3d artist, an animator, tell, tell me, because I do not do well with computer stuff, as we found out a few minutes ago um, well, that's a.

Speaker 2: 1:27

Really I wasn't expecting that to be the opening question, to be honest, but I guess, like a 3d artist animator, we just uh, use softwares that allow us to create digital worlds and break the rules of reality within them. So you know, we can make people fly, we can make buildings crumble and we can do so much more without actually doing damage with the real world.

Speaker 1: 1:50

And thanks to the incredible development of technology, today we can make a look as real as life itself so are you working with like filmmakers and stuff to add in 3d renders or are you an add in your animations?

Speaker 2: 2:09

kind of talk me through that bit, like how it works alongside so it's interesting because, like I'm I would actually say I'm still quite early on in my career. Um so, with what I do specifically, I create animated films, but it's more targeted towards businesses that help them sell their message to their intended target audience.

Speaker 1: 2:32

Oh cool. So it's more like the market inside.

Speaker 2: 2:36

Yeah, you could say that.

Speaker 1: 2:37

Yeah, so how does that tie in? I guess it ties in really well with your filmmaking and that kind of side of things. It's kind of a similar. You've got a similar eye for it.

Speaker 2: 2:54

Yeah, I mean, it's like same crisps, different flavor. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so you can. You can, as long as you know what the message is. It could be whether a 15 second instagram reel, or it could be like a five minute cinematic movie, or it could be like a two minute animated short like, but the message could always be the same, you know, yeah. Yeah, it's just about what medium do you use to convey that message for the target audience and you know what theme suits the message best.

Speaker 1: 3:20

Yeah, yeah, so how do you find um working with clients when you're kind of, do you give them a form and kind of go like is this for instagram, is this for your like website? Do you kind of find that clients want specific things from you or do they want you to do a website, five minute um film, as well as some reels and like. Are they doing kind of asking for quite a lot from you or one thing or?

Speaker 2: 3:46

it's quite fascinating because, um, again, as I would say, I'm quite early on in my career, so I wouldn't say I've had a lot of clients, but I can say that, with the clients that I've had so far, I think loads of people have, or think they have, ideas, but they don't know how to actually conceptualize them.

Speaker 2: 4:03

Yeah, I think this is what we, as creatives, do we take the ideas and conceptualize them, and that's what makes us the working professional is to do that, not just for ourselves, but also to to do that from what's inside other people's heads, and it's an acquired skill and it's a very valuable skill, which is why we um charge our worth for it. Yes, yeah, and I think there could still be some work to done in actually highlighting that point across so that those who aren't well versed in the creative field they can understand the nuances of conceptualizing the idea in other people's heads. It is so much more difficult, um, than it may seem to be, but it's um, oh god. What's the name of that law? Uh, I think it's um, oh cripes.

Speaker 1: 4:58

I've forgotten the name of it, but basically it's the more you think you know something, the less you actually know it yeah, and I think you're so right with like trying to get into clients heads that it's really difficult to kind of, because everybody's creative eye is different and even if someone's not creative, say like the accounts team, sometimes they still want an opinion on it right, and then it's difficult to kind of differentiate whose opinion really matters and actually you've then got to filter it out and it kind of I was chatting to somebody else about this at work the other day as creatives we're kind of problem solvers for the clients, because we keep solving the rubik's cube until we get it right for what they want.

Speaker 2: 5:42

It's kind of if that's the right analogy maybe I think the only opinion that ever truly matters is the target audiences. That is the key opinion and the best way to to determine whose opinion is most important. I think if you start there and then work backwards, then I think you would have a seamless working uh flow with the client almost every single time. That's provided the client knows that and the working professional knows that and they both have a unanimous and synchronized understanding of the target audience's. You know experience with engaging with that creative medium that you produce yeah, yeah, I think it's difficult.

Speaker 1: 6:27

We it's a conversation that me and um colleagues have all the time like freelance colleagues, about like finding the right balance with clients because it is you know they are paying for your service, so it's sometimes you can't let your ego get in the way and then you've got to kind of say, well, I do know best because I've been doing this job however many years like you've booked me, because I'm the professional in this and it's difficult to find that balance, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 6:53

sometimes you're just like I don't know. Sometimes I go home and think, oh, bloody hell, I wish you'd just listen to me.

Speaker 2: 7:01

I mean this. This is the thing like the ego is a double-edged sword, because personally for me, I hate creative ego so much, but there's times where you do need to let it shine because they're coming to you as the creative expert. So you need to show them your creative brilliance and I I use that phrasing because they want something brilliant. So you have to carry the brilliance within your character and within your own personal branding, because if they think you're brilliant, they're also going to think the work is brilliant as well. So it's about it's like you know ben parker's famous quote great power comes great responsibility. You have to know when to exercise that ego and switch that sort of like character on so that whenever it's necessary to be like, okay, this guy know what he's doing, he's going to take great care of us, we trust his vision. And it's about how you can actually carry that across and convey that to the client without having to literally say it yeah, yeah, so yeah, it's. It's an interesting psychological tactic that you have to have at play and I think, like for me as a massive psychology nut, there is a lot of mind games that you have to play with them, and it's funny because I would like to think that I'm the kind of person where anyone that has a meeting or one to one with me like it's always always fun has a meeting or one-to-one with me like it's always always fun, like I always love like trying to make people laugh and just have a good time. Because to do that you make the client comfortable, they open up a lot more, and my goal is to make the conversation as human as possible, not be so cool like oh, hello, nice to meet you and yes, very nice.

Speaker 2: 8:43

Can you make something for me? Yes, I can. Like, why does it have to be so formal? Like we are creators, we are overgrown children having fun, you know. Like have some fun for crying out loud. Like don't be afraid to like have a laugh and be silly and crack some jokes. It doesn't have to be all like gray and miserable skies. Just because the weather is miserable outside doesn't mean it has to affect us too.

Speaker 1: 9:03

Yeah, a hundred, a hundred million percent, like it's I don't know. I find this because you've caught me today and I'm wearing white normally. Well, actually today I was wearing dungarees and like we went out and I was wearing like about six different patterns and my husband's like god, can you like chill out? He stood there wearing black and jeans and um, I'm like I express you, express yourself by being, I don't know I express myself. Jeans and um, I'm like I expect you express yourself by being. I don't know.

Speaker 1: 9:30

I express myself with my clothes. I'm bright, I'm like really chatty. People will not be shocked by that and I think that is a part of being creative. You kind of express yourself in like all layers of life and that's people, I think, fall in love with you and wanting to work with you as a person, not just because of your skills but because your personality. Yeah, and I think that when you're more relaxed, like you say, they get you get the answers you want way quicker than if you're like very corporate and like hello, my name's Bob, what would you like from me? Do you know what I mean? Like we're not in that kind of world Well, not in our world anyway.

Speaker 2: 10:10

Yeah, and I think that's a luxury and I think it's something that a lot of businesses would envy. Because, yeah, if you compare like creative to corporate, like corporate is like you know lots of black and whites, whereas we actually have all the colours. But even then you can have all these amazing colors. But then you know, the beauty of black and white is that you have some interesting boundaries that you're working in between and you know you think of cartoons and everything has a black outline. So it's colors within the containment and you can still have pretty pictures that are still appealing to the eye. So it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's just about how well can you mix the two together to create a pretty picture.

Speaker 1: 10:52

Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely, and I think as well, sometimes when corporate people are dealing with creatives, they kind of get a bit like a rabbit in the headlights. When they see us coming, they're like, oh God, I'm not sure what I want, cause I'm so used to it either being right or wrong and actually there's 20 different ways to create the same thing in our world you know, and I think they do.

Speaker 1: 11:14

They kind of go like, uh what, what am I? What are we supposed to do? This is this, are we able to do this? So also tell me about your other passion. You have a youtube channel, right?

Speaker 2: 11:27

I do indeed.

Speaker 1: 11:29

And it's called Skate the World and I believe have you been on the BBC and stuff about it?

Speaker 2: 11:34

I might have been.

Speaker 1: 11:36

That's amazing. Please tell us more, because we were just chatting off air that I used to go to the skate park cannot really skate. We tried, we fell over too much, and so I know a bit about this, this world, but explain to me how this started out and everything else that comes in between sure.

Speaker 2: 11:55

So, um, I've always loved skateboarding. Skateboarding has been my fun, escapism from reality and, uh, I always skated in my back garden where I learned all of my tricks. And uh, yeah, I think when covid hits, it really dawned on me just how alone I was because, um, I realized everyone's got really close groups of friends that they can, like you know, talk to, have laughs with, have banter with, and when I just saw everyone just kind of going off into their groups, I realized that I actually didn't have anyone and it really really got to me mentally. So I just had this sort of like existential crisis being like, oh my god, I'm alone. I'm alone and you know it's a really really horrible, daunting feeling, but I think I'm probably still trying to learn how to escape from today, like five years later, to a degree, and, yeah, and I think the horror from that kind of like traumatized me to a point where I realized that I need my own soul tribe and I I want to use the term soul tribe like very like firmly here, because I think a soul tribe is really something wonderful, because you know it really resonates with you deep within and that's the kind of people you want to keep. So, um, yeah, after COVID hit, um, I was working for a film production company at the time as an animator and life during then just felt like I was either always in the house or I was always in the office and there was like no in between, and it just felt like I was either always in the house or I was always in the office and there was like no in between, and it just felt like I was just kind of being like suffocated in buildings.

Speaker 2: 13:35

And I found this guy called david mahaifi and he did this really, really complex skateboard trick that I'd never seen before and I'm just like my god, this man's amazing right. So I reached out to him on instagram being like yo, dude, I just wanted to say like you're absolutely amazing and I love the tricks you did and to my surprise, he actually followed me back. He said thank you and we had like a little exchange and then I promoted some of his tricks up on TikTok, because I've got like a TikTok page where I post like skateboarding stuff, oh cool, and it's got um, a moderate following, I would say. But, um, it's mostly a skateboarding page where I just upload like random tricks I try and stuff. But I wanted to throw up there because I felt like the world needed to see more of his thing and, um, yeah, he, it just blew our minds and, you know, carried on and then, um, yeah, I was still suffocating in between the two buildings and then I was just, I just had this idea because, um, there's a youtuber called ponisher who, uh, or clinton jones, he did a 3d render challenge which I kind of partook in, and basically you have this template, a 3d animation template, but you create your own interpretation based on that template.

Speaker 2: 14:57

The only thing you can't contain sorry, the only thing that you can't change is the character's movement and a little thing in the background, like the mere shape of it. So this was one of the most viral animation challenges that went up on the internet and even though I didn't make the top 100, like everyone loved the end uh film with the montage of the top 100 pieces, and the film was just kind of just looping in my head and there's this one particular soundtrack, that, um, or just one particular song that I always thought would be an amazing uh soundtrack for a skateboard film, and I never knew what that skateboard film was. But then I put the two and two together and I thought wouldn't it be cool if there was a film where we can bring all the skateboarders in the world to push together as one? And wouldn't it be great if we can go to these different places? And then something clicked there. And then, when it comes to particular ideas, they stay stuck in my head and it stays there until it hurts and throbs, until I do something about that idea. Jobs, until I do something about that idea. And this was one of them.

Speaker 2: 16:11

And at the time, at my old job, I was just looking at the things that we were doing.

Speaker 2: 16:13

Work was quiet, nothing much was happening there, and I just thought all I just want to do is just get out there and meet as many people as possible and just make this thing, because I don't think anyone has ever done it.

Speaker 2: 16:23

And the whole premise with skate the world is that I say it's unity within community amongst diversity, which means that like it will go from like a five-year-old kid pushing and learning how to ride off a curb to maybe a 60 year old man trying to do like a simple shove it or something to an olympic athlete, to a, to someone who might be of LGBTQ, or perhaps it will be an amputee, or it could be a blind skateboarder, and it would just be a whole diversity of spectrum of different people all over the world Just pushing skating together as one to symbolize that it's not necessarily about the skill, but it's just about you doing something because you enjoy it, because that's all you need to show that you have in common with someone else.

Speaker 2: 17:12

Like people may look different and people are always afraid with what they don't understand because of what makes things different. But if you have something that is similar to another person, that can also bridge the gap that you, that is between us, so that we can reveal what more we have in common. Because, at the end of the day, we are all human, because that's what we are. We're just human and even though we're different in various different ways means and experiences and races, religions and whatever we're all still human at the end of the day. So what gives?

Speaker 1: 17:46

Yeah, yeah, and I think that's finding your soul tribe like that. Everybody has one and I'm really sorry you went through such a horrible like lonely experience during COVID, but actually I feel like you've used that and you've launched yourself off into a project that has actually filled your heart a little bit and you're kind of like, oh actually I love this and I'm connecting with different people in different in this community and that's like something to be really proud of. You've done that for yourself, thank you.

Speaker 2: 18:19

Um, I think it's a struggle for me to feel the pride of it yet, because all I just think of is how do I balance freelancing, getting money in and getting the work in to afford the trips to keep myself going around the world a lot more. And so, because of this situation that I find myself in, it's like I'm building two different brands at once and it's just made me get myself thrown into this very entrepreneurial mindset where I'm just thinking how do we grow this, how do we attract, attract more clients, how do I make good pitches, how can we talk ourselves into getting really good big number deals and how can we attract sponsors? Yada, yada, yada. So that's kind of like where my brain is at at the moment. It's just like constantly thinking on overdrive like how do we get expansion, how do we build a team, how do we afford editors?

Speaker 1: 19:05

and, yeah, it's crazy like I can see how your mind's working watching you chat about it. Then, because I feel like a lot of my freelance colleagues, we're all the same. We're like right, okay, what can we do for this, what can we do for this? And our brains are going at like a million mile an hour. And sometimes I'll chat to friends and we're like for like hours and then my husband's like how have you, how are you still buzzing? And I'm like because then I've been given another 50 ideas, because I spoke to my friend and she's going blah, blah, blah, you know, and I feel like that's how our minds work.

Speaker 1: 19:40

And then we also try a bit of everything. Right, we kind of I love the saying you kind of throw shit at the wall and see what sticks, like that's kind of how we roll. We go right okay, let's see if this works, let's see if this works, let's tie this into this, let's tie this into this and just see what happens. Because we're kind of the playful people in the world, right, we're kind of like problem solving, like we're saying earlier, and we're just playing with stuff and going oh, okay, actually that idea is developing a little bit more. It's developing a little bit more and you kind of push stuff and it's really exciting, I think, for you to be at the beginning of your business as well and kind of trying to incorporate the two things that you really love, that you're really passionate about, and like that's really exciting. Are you scared or are you excited, or are you kind of just head going a million mile an hour and just pushing through?

Speaker 2: 20:30

I'm stressed I'm just stressed out because it's like with me, it's like when I have an idea, I know how to do it. Like it's so interesting because, like very profound ideas like that, I have no uh doubts or hesitation in my ability to see it through. Like, when it comes to ideas, I know how to execute them. I think, when it comes to us as creatives and being burdened with ideas because that's that's the thing with us like we always have ideas of things every single day. But I think the real swan song of our careers is how do we take these things and execute them? I think it's the execution that is our swan song, that makes us the elegant, incredible creatives that allow us to thrive and be the big, booming individuals across the world. That makes us in demand. I want to be the kind of creative that everyone wants and is in demand because I'm just doing like hot shit every single time, and I think every creative should and I'm presumed would aspire to do exactly the same thing, because you've got to be the best, nothing less.

Speaker 1: 21:38

Yeah, I do think sometimes putting that pressure on yourself can stress you out even more. But there's nothing wrong with having a little bit of stress in your life, unless it's making you ill. Like, let's be straight. If it's making you sick, cut that fucking stress down keyboard is little.

Speaker 2: 21:56

Um, I have a lot to say about stress, because I have definitely gone through a fair bout of it, uh, especially last year. Uh, last year was a particularly stressful year. That year and, um, I think that was a big giant propulsion into this huge momentum that I'm trying to gather for myself to really go all out there and build something absolutely monumental, because it's what I truly want and, um, you know it's uh okay. So one thing I'll be vulnerable about so for most of my life, I have never made much out of the things that I've created and my true biggest ultimate goal is to just afford my own place to live yeah and I have been struggling to do that because, to this day, I am yet to earn more than 25 grand a year.

Speaker 2: 22:52

Yeah, it's hard.

Speaker 1: 23:00

It's horrifying and it messes with my head. Freelancing. I don't know 12 years ago that freelancers still aren't really earning much more than what they were 12 years ago. I'd be like get over, like fuck off. Of course they're going to be earning more. We're just not Like. People are getting cut down, big budgets are getting cut and I think, especially because you're in London as well, that's going to add a premium to it and I think it's really hard for people to take that next step and kind of this my own beef as well but people put this kind of societal expectation on you that by certain age you should be doing this, by certain age you should be doing this and doing this and doing this, and actually we're not all the same and actually it doesn't matter whether you're living at home or whether you're living with a partner or you're living in a house share or you know, it doesn't matter if you're 45 and you're not married, you're not got kids.

Speaker 2: 24:02

do you know what?

Speaker 1: 24:03

I mean like people need to chill out a little bit and kind of that social expectation needs to like be put in the bin really, and especially as I think you're, like a little bit younger than me, right, so I think like I've been through two recessions, the a few wars have happened, not in the uk but like around. Economic decline has happened, crash of the euro, crash of lots of things, brexit I mean don't even get me started, um, and I think it was on my birthday fun fact oh no.

Speaker 1: 24:40

Oh, mate, that's here. We're gonna leave the eu? Oh no. But yeah, I think like, as a younger generation, we've all been through things that and a pandemic duh about that. We've all been through like so much stuff that of course we're not doing the things that our a pandemic duh forgot that. But we've all been through like so much stuff that of course we're not doing the things that our parents did at 25, at 35, at 45 or whatever, because we're not in the same financial situation as they are. And then you add in the little tack of being creative. It is a more difficult industry to be in. It is more volatile. People don't often see value in it, even though some do and then some go. Well, I don't know what I should be paying. I don't know 10 grand for that, and I think that's the kind of delicate balance and I think it's really hard to kind of balance that out and be freelance and try and figure out your own business and everything else, because running your own business is wild like no one ever tells you.

Speaker 2: 25:40

It's wild, it's a wild, wild ride, right let's not forget to mention the sources of education and how scarce actual good sources of education are to help you with your own personal endeavor, because I hadn't had a clue how to do it properly until last september. I mean, I tried freelancing before and it was abysmal how I did it. But you know, now I'm trying again with proper information, like with a lot more maturity now, and it's just like something some there's something about it that has kind of clicked for me, but it's it's still early days and I still want to just be able to just kind of just master it and just get it done right so that once I understand the nuances of freelancing and business and how to talk to people, how to engage with them, in a way it's kind of great because you're using more brain power, you're studying people more and you are getting around people. So in regards to, like the lonely aspect, it's definitely helped me a lot because it's a propulsion for me to go out there, engage with people and speak with people more and just conversations like this, it just really truly makes me happy.

Speaker 2: 26:44

And when you have, when you realize the joy of conversation and talking with people and you let the excitement conquer you, because every single individual that you meet, no matter where they are, what their background is from, what their wealth is like, if they got a lot of it or very little of it, you are going to have something to learn and everyone becomes a teacher for you in that regard. So you're always going to have something valuable to receive when you engage with someone. And I think with that sort of outlook, I know that when I go out and engage with people and I speak with them and it's just having that kind of curiosity for who the other person is and what they're trying to do, it can really take you a long way. And then when you mix that with business, god knows what kind of opportunities you will create for yourself.

Speaker 1: 27:34

Yeah, one million percent, and I think, like I mean, like I say, I've been freelance over a decade, 12 years, 13. I've given up accounting at this point and freelancing is a wild ride. I've had my busiest January and February to date in the last 10 years.

Speaker 1: 27:54

It's not been this busy in 10 years and it is a wild. There's some months where I go oh shit, does nobody want me? Did I fart when I was last in the studio or something? Just you know what happened. Did I swear at somebody I shouldn't have done, or whatever. And then there's some months where I'm like, sorry, I can't, I'm booked, I can't, I can't take you on as a client.

Speaker 1: 28:15

And I think it never stops ceasing to amaze me that somehow I'm muddling through and I can afford to live, because that's all that. My expectation of my business is that I can afford to live a life of how I want to live. That's it. I'm not after a I don't know Lamborghini or anything like that. Couldn't give less of a shit. Do you know what I mean? I'm not, I'm not there to millions, but but I do think that propelling, propelling yourself in like into your business and kind of like trying to put your all into it and kind of going out and meeting all these different people you never know where these little conversations are going to lead and it's just opening yourself up and kind of being a little bit vulnerable with people and kind of going well, I'm here if you need me. Here's my like. I don't know. Here's my website. Here's my business card. Like and just checking with people. Oh, how you going.

Speaker 1: 29:09

You know it's a lot of work. When you're only one person, you're doing your accounts, you find a business you're actually doing the job you want to do, which is maybe only a third of the actual work. When you're only one person, you're doing your accounts, you find a business you're actually doing the job you want to do, which is maybe only a third of the actual work. Then you're chasing invoices and whatever else you're doing, marketing yourself. But all these little conversations you're so right, you never know where they're going to go and if you're leading with excitement, people are going to get that vibe off you and be be like right. I want him, I want fazel, to come and work with me because he's happy, he's like fun, we're having a laugh while we're doing it. Why not? You know? Yeah, I think that's it.

Speaker 2: 29:43

It's, it's the emotional experience that you bring that's the most important thing that any working creative professional brings to any job. It's not the skill, it's not the ideas, it's the emotional experience for the client because, no, no project is greater than the project that you had fun doing. Because you're going to miss those projects, you're going to wish you had more of those projects and when they miss it, they're going to want to come back for more that's it.

Speaker 1: 30:10

I mean, I was on a job this um week that I was really good fun. I don't know if I can talk about it I've not signed an NDA, but anyway we were using like lots of different platforms and stuff and like I was styling the products and things and we had the client on set and it was just a good fun. Like we had some nineties tunes going show me age again and we were just kind of like having a laugh, having fun. The client was like ask, like giving her two cents as well, and we all just gelled and we were like this is so good. And then they've said sent the shots to the boss. The boss absolutely loved them. I'm like this is what we need. These like this person is. I hate to say it, I'm gonna sound like such an old biddy. They're there for the vibes.

Speaker 2: 30:54

The vibes were good the other reason why I'm laughing is because, um, I you know the people who are. I've never liked the over emphasis of the word vibes a lot. It's good to know it's not just me but I'm like.

Speaker 1: 31:11

I'm like oh my god, I sound so old, but that's the only way to describe it like the whole kind of like vibe in air quotes of the shoot was just so fun and so relaxed that actually, when everyone's like you were saying earlier, when everyone's comfortable and relaxed, you get the best out of everybody. If you're stressed to the nines with a rocket up your ass and someone breathing fire down your neck, you're not going to get the best out of someone yep, uh, I have so much to say about that.

Speaker 2: 31:37

I don't know why we create these situations like um. Please explain the false sense of urgency when there's no need for it, and if there is something urgent, then how did that situation come to be in the first place? Yeah yeah, uh, yeah, I think um forward thinking really does go a long way yeah, I think.

Speaker 1: 31:56

Um, from my point of view, forward thinking was kind of forgotten about during covid, along with politeness. Yes, I've definitely found that. Yep, uh, I not necessarily just in business. I mean like I was in supermarket the other day and I thought, fuck me, these people are really impolite and just really annoying but I think, like not to play devil's advocate or even defend behavior, because I just don't like horrible people.

Speaker 2: 32:28

But, um, I think when you contain people for so long not not that anyone wanted to, but because they had to it will, you know, make people crazy. I think it's in a number on all of us.

Speaker 1: 32:40

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:41

Yeah, I mean, even though we're out of it it's, I think. Has the world changed since? I don't know.

Speaker 1: 32:48

Yeah, I'm, I'm like it's kind of some. I'm like it's kind of some people have changed for the better and I think some people have changed for the worse, and I think you're so right. Everybody's been affected in their own way and whether they've gone to therapy or not or dealt with it in the way that they see fit. You know, I don't know. I think like the sense of urgency thing as well is just for forward, forward thinking, forward planning, you know, but often as well, sometimes I don't know whether you get this as much, but for me it's like products maybe don't arrive, or you know, there's issues with supply chain and things like that. I don't know if you're animating, whether you have. Do you have like to animate products and stuff, or is it just like you make your own kind of characters and things?

Speaker 2: 33:34

It varies on the project. I mean whenever characters are involved, and it takes a lot more time because you have to do the character design, get the sign off for the design and then you have to animate the characters, do facial expressions, and will the animations be so complex that you need to involve a motion capture suit? And if you do need a motion capture suit, where you're going to involve a motion capture suit? And if you do need a motion capture suit, where are you going to get the motion capture suit? Who are going to be the performance artists and how are you going to tidy up the mocap? It's a really big snowball and it just determines on what is required of that project and the sort of animation that is involved.

Speaker 1: 34:14

I guess I'm understanding a little bit more now that it can kind of just become a huge project. So do you do graphic design as well? Is that part of your um kind of job, or is it kind of not really?

Speaker 2: 34:26

I feel like graphic design is a giant umbrella at this point I mean the graphic design is.

Speaker 2: 34:31

In design and illustrator you do things for magazines and books and documents and just make the general stuff of a business look really pretty so that it's nice to look at when you're engaging with business. For me it's more making things move and making it look really cool, because animation instantly makes a brand look very premium, expensive and very trustworthy to invest in. Because cgr looks expensive and if something looks expensive you're going to think, oh, they're well funded, they're pretty rich, they know what they're doing, and then, yeah, you want to invest in you use blender right I do indeedy yeah, I tried using blender.

Speaker 1: 35:13

Oh wow, that's a steep learning curve. That is one hell of a program yes, it's rather brilliant.

Speaker 2: 35:22

Uh, it's taken me a long time to kind of like understand the nuances of it, but uh, I think for what you get out of a free little software, there is an abundance of you know outcomes where it's just endless inspiration, and I think anything that you have in your head you can probably bring it to life in Blender. The only thing that is getting in your way is how and again it's the swan song of a creative is in the execution. If you know how to execute an idea, you will find a way to bring your vision to life. It's whether you are. You will find a way to bring your vision to life. It's whether you are able to have that stamina to bring that vision to life. And you know it's different strokes for different folks.

Speaker 2: 36:01

Like, blender is a complicated software. You don't really know where to begin, what to do, because there's so much and it's so overwhelming. And, um, the crazy thing is is that blender is actually one of the more simpler 3D tools, because when you look at something like Unreal Engine or something else, you're just like dear God. So I'm kind of having that kind of effect with Unreal. I really want to learn Unreal. It's one of my goals for 2025. Just have one portfolio project completed in Unreal Engine and it's just about starting small and letting yourself go bigger and bigger and bigger. So you know, if you want to make a cube, great, if you want to learn how to texture that cube, uh, fantastic. Now, how are you going to make that texture cube move? Now, you're going to do this, uh, will you simulate that cube after you moved it? Brilliant. It's just about really dumbing it down and taking it step by step and that's it really.

Speaker 1: 36:57

I think because tech programs I'm going to call them tech programs again show my age because they're so layered and because you can get to the end via multi different like loads of different ways. They confuse the shit out of me. But I really admire when people can use like blender and you know retouchers who can do a fab job in photoshop and graphic designers who are creating logos and things like that, because it just blows my mind that they know how to do it. I mean just insane. It's insane that you're like, ah, blender's cool, but there's a more complex one.

Speaker 2: 37:33

I'm like what my brain popped out I'm just um just looking for the next one up, I mean yeah yeah, I mean maybe I should take a moment to kind of be happy with where I'm at currently and, um, yeah it's, I'm pretty chuffed, but at the same it's good to not be too complacent for long, because I just want to be better, like that, and that's kind of like my ongoing hunger.

Speaker 1: 37:56

I just want to take what I'm doing and just make it better, make it better, make it better yeah and I'm sure, like something will like come out of that is that you're building the foundation blocks to make your work easier, aren't you? By picking up these programs that I'm guessing more people use, and you'll be able to be like, yeah, cool, I know how to do that. Bam bish, bash, bosh done, and it just kind of makes your um job easier, doesn't it then? And you're more streamlined, everything else yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 38:28

I mean, um, I think the best way to learn anything in the world of creative is just have an idea. Don't worry about how big it is or how crazy it is, just have an idea and execute it and it's better than Okay. So let's say, for example, if anyone here wants to learn Blender and wants to learn how to animate, don't just religiously follow one tutorial after another tutorial after another tutorial. Don't do that. Think about what is it in Blender that I want to create? Do I want to create an animation? Do I want to create a running character? Like, think about what it is that you want to make. Then see what it is that other people have made as well. Got that the wrong way around. See what other people have made as well. Then think about what it is that you want to make in blender and then go ahead and try to do it and when you get stuck, then find a youtube tutorial to do the thing, to help you on your way with the journey yeah, I do the same with.

Speaker 1: 39:26

You might laugh, but I downloaded um adobe cloud so I've got like everything on there and then I'll fiddle around on like wherever program it is, and then when I get stuck, instead of trying to launch my laptop out of the window, I'll go on youtube and just be like, oh right now, this is where I'm up to and, like you can just sit and kind of figure it out rather than trying to do the tutorials. I guess that's because we're visual people as well and often we're like visual learners or like physical learners, where you have to do it to learn how to do it. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2: 39:58

yeah, we learn best with our hands. I think, yeah, yeah, that's kind of what makes us thrivers, creators, is that we actually get our hands dirty, we actually engage with the problem physically in a way to solve it. Yeah, I know that, like so, you know, for example, unreal engine, really overwhelming software. But I know that if I want to overcome it and learn how to use it, I go in unreal engine with the intention of, like, I'm going to make an animated scene of a car driving through a forest. That's my intention with unreal engine. So how do I make a forest? How do I find the right trees? What are the right photo references? How do I import 3d assets into the thing? And then you find yourself questions that you are able to answer and then boom, you've learned the software yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:42

And then from then it's like translating, like okay, a different background, cool, I know which method I use for that. Cool, know which method I use for that. I think, yeah, you're so right and just the.

Speaker 2: 40:53

The benefit with 3d is that everything is kind of universal because everything uses um fbx's to import everything in all 3d assets have textures or image textures. You know everything has roughness maps and all that. So in a way a lot of 3d software are kind of similar in that regard.

Speaker 2: 41:12

But it's just like different softwares have different specialisms. Like you know, blender is really great for creating 3d assets and you know just making something out of nothing, whereas character creator from real illusion is specialized for creating 3d characters. So you can make a character in character creator, then import that character into its sister software called iClone, and iClone is really good for character animations. Now you can animate the character that you created in iClone and then take that animated character and then put it into Blender and then you have a rendered scene with an animated character using 3D softwares.

Speaker 1: 41:49

Wow, so I didn't realize they were that universal actually.

Speaker 2: 41:53

Yeah, 3d softwares are very, very universal.

Speaker 2: 41:56

It's like a professional 3D artist doesn't just stick to one software or one tool, they use a variety of tools to get the best end product for the intended target audience to engage with. So it's, you know, using the Reallusion software. It's using real illusion software, it's using blender, it's using unreal engine, using maya, using, uh, autodesk and um, you know as well adobe, using substance painter, uh, premiere pro after effects. You use all these things to get a beautiful piece of art, because I think we can get so caught up with the software and the technicalities of things, but what really truly matters is the artwork that we are creating that serves a purpose, not just for businesses and target audiences as well, but, like we're creating, you know, emotional experiences that are very, very profound, that sticks with us when we walk away, and I think that is something that is slowly dying, that is really in need of reigniting, because that's the soul of what we do and is, in essence, what keeps our businesses alive and thriving. It's what people take away when we create something for them.

Speaker 1: 43:16

Yeah, it should evoke an emotion from the person who's watching it, yeah, person who's seen it, because that's what all art does, is it evokes it.

Speaker 2: 43:22

Whether you like it or not, it evokes an emotion for me personally, I am very, very, very, very firm with the clients that I engage with and everyone else that, like you know, you have to think about the emotional impact with whatever we're creating, even if it's corporate, like if it could be the most boring thing about fiscal banks or whatever, but like there could be a way to make it fun and exciting.

Speaker 2: 43:44

If not, fine, doesn't matter. But that doesn't mean that it can't be done. You know, uh, it just depends on whether the client is interested in it or they're not really keen to go down that route, and it's okay. Maybe something that just gets the point across can also fit them, fit the bill too, because, again, it just depends on what someone has the patience for these days. So, yeah, yeah, I mean. Yeah, I don't, I mean I don't know where I'm going, but I mean the point I'm trying to make is that for me personally, as a professional artist, I think the emotional impact of things is really, really important and it's something that I will not forget in anything that I do it's so.

Speaker 1: 44:25

You're so right. I think creatives forget that we're artists as well, you know as a big broad umbrella. As creatives, we're all artists in our own little way, aren't we? Yeah, we kind of forget that. So did you go to uni? No, or you didn't go to uni? Okay. Fellow non-uni goer, here too, you're in good, good hands. Um, so how did you decide that this was what you were going to do?

Speaker 1: 44:49

is this something that like you were like oh, I'm playing around with um, with 3d stuff, and then just kind of oh, I got the best story for this, so um amazing at the time, I was exploring photography and I was having so much fun with it and I was getting a bit of a reputation for it on social media too.

Speaker 2: 45:07

So, um, I went to a photography talk and one of the guys presenting was a guy who shot for nike and me and him kind of connected because I somehow, like back then I was a very timid, socially anxious person. I found it really, really difficult to talk to people, but for some reason I somehow found the cojones to push myself forward and speak to this brilliant, glorious, successful man that was before me. I was like hi, I'm so fascinated to hear more about you and you know, I just I connected with him through twitter and he kept an eye on my tweets and my photography and my ambition. And then he reached out to me and then, uh, we met up, we had a chat and, um, I got to assist him for a little bit with some projects and we had that um ongoing like connection there for a little bit. But at the time I was still in, I was still doing my a levels in college, so, uh, so we were doing the recent exams.

Speaker 2: 46:11

It was a2 and, uh, long story short, this guy that I met. He was judging a competition with Sony and whoever would win would get to go on a trip to Poland for a week and get some free camera gear and whatnot. And he said that he would encourage me to enter the competition. Right? So I was like dude, I'm so down with that. But I kind of have exams and I think I just want to just concentrate on them.

Speaker 2: 46:41

And that was the most difficult decision of my life, like I really didn't want to do this, but I had to do this because, yeah, just as a safety net. So I thought I I think I should probably focus on my exams. And this was me listening to my parents. So, um, it was the most hardest news to break at that time. But he understood and he was like, okay, fair enough. So months go by, I'm waiting for my exam timetable and the one exam that would have clashed with that poland trip. The college didn't enter that for me out of some admin error, so I could have went in the first place. Oh my god. And I was so angry that I just remember just laughing diabolically and not giving a damn about education anymore, because I realized that was god's way of telling me that I was meant for the world of creativity and that education for me personally, like there's not much there for me, holy shit.

Speaker 1: 47:43

So, um yeah, if that isn't, if that isn't the universe, having said oh, dude, come on, like what? Did that? Put a fire up? Like in your belly, were you like?

Speaker 2: 47:55

right, that's it, I'm, I'm going for it now it snapped my brain in half and I just for lack of a better way of explaining it I just became just sort of like hell-bent, sort of like monsters, just to be the greatest photographer that the world had ever seen at the time, and, um, I just sent it. It's just, I would just lived and breathed it. I just wanted to learn how to refine the craft, do things better, all different fields of photography. I just wanted to just master it all because I did not want an opportunity like that to slip through my fingers again. But, aggravatingly, it didn't work out for me that way. And, um, I will be super honest.

Speaker 2: 48:36

Like when it came to professional photography, it always felt like I was clashing with a lot of egos, and the ego is something that has kind of like like to deal with that for so long. You know, do you remember? There was this meme, right? It's like you have this like pyramid of pigeons and like every pigeon you're going up and up and up, and like you're at the bottom of this pyramid and you look up and all you just see are these assholes just like shitting on you and it's like you're trying to climb up this mountain, so you just get covered in less and less shit. But you know, it's just like when you look up, or you just see our arseholes, and then when you go up and then you look back down or you just see your shit, and it's just such a horrible concept of a pyramid to, even, you know, think about aligning yourself with, but it's just all you see everywhere.

Speaker 2: 49:29

I remember when I went to a photography expo and I spoke to actually wasn't even a photography expo, it was something for complete, something completely different, but it was a photographer there. So I spoke with the photographer and I told him like, oh, what camera do you shoot with? It was like I don't shoot with, I don't shoot with canons, I shoot with sony. The guy laughed in my face and said that I knew nothing about cameras and photography because, um, I said that I shot with a sony e-mount crop mirrorless camera. Look at the world now, buddy, everyone's using sony everywhere I was just gonna say everyone's also using mirrorless.

Speaker 1: 50:04

Exactly one of the companies that I work for is a very large fashion company in the uk. All of their cameras are mirrorless, all of them, and they're like expensive pieces of kit and they're all mirrorless and all they're shooting is ecom yep and uh.

Speaker 2: 50:22

To that gentleman who said that to me years ago, all I can say is take that, uh, take whatever canon you got, put on the biggest lens you have and shove it up your ass sideways.. But I mean, um, okay, where were we? Yeah, so I just felt like I was always clashing with egos. It was really difficult to even um network and connect with other photographers because I felt like only like back then, when Instagram was still kind of its own thing, and you know, I felt like with other photographers they would only want to talk to me, be friended with me and engage with me. If I had 10,000, 15,000, 20,000 followers and I had something going for me. If I didn't have that following, they didn't even want to look at me, they didn't even want to respond to my messages.

Speaker 2: 51:13

I would remember, you know, trying to talk to some and I would just get ghosted a lot and I think, like when you get made to feel lesser because you don't have that sort of like recognition that you're working really hard to get, it really sticks with you and I think ever since then I like, especially within, like the realms of like photography and whatnot. I've always had to sort of like bitterness with it because of the experience that I had with it. So, um, yeah, I mean, I do photography in my own terms, I only do it strictly for fun. I don't really care about what I get with it, because photography back then was my cathartic joy and form of expression. I never expected anything from it and that was the only way I could like, salvage whatever love I had left for it. Because, you know, people were really cruel, people were really mean, it was very belittling and the just the ego.

Speaker 1: 52:03

The ego is just the stinkiest thing in the realm of creativity, in my opinion yeah, I think um, just to interrupt your flow there, I'm originally from peterborough, right, and I used to do some jobs in london and I think there is some sense of massive ego in london where people, certain creatives, think that they're amazing because they live in london and that they're like I'm amazing, I, I do this and I've done like three magazines and I'm incredible.

Speaker 1: 52:37

And it's like I know some people up north who are absolutely amazing at their jobs and they don't have that dickhead side to it. And I do think, like I definitely found that whenever I was in London, I was was like oh ew, some of these creatives really aren't that nice and actually it's not like that across the whole country. I think that is a London thing personally, but then I've done a bit of work in both, and it's not all London creatives by any means, but I think in the photography industry, I think there's a lot of egos, especially in London. I think a lot of people move down to London expecting the world and then they realize they're working in e-com studios and they could be doing that up north for the same money and earning more money because they're not paying extra rent or whatever. But I think, yeah, I definitely found that some people who live that way are more egotistical.

Speaker 2: 53:34

Yeah, I mean they can boast about they had this, they had that, but I just think about, okay, but how many people actually genuinely love you for who you are? Yeah, yeah, and then that's just my course, I think, because I think that's really the true value of life like you can accomplish all the great things in the world. But I think a forgotten beauty in well, not really forgotten I think it's actually becoming a lot more known. But like having really good, valuable connections with people that make you feel something great, like that's the true currency of success. Doesn't matter how many magazines you've been published or this, that and the other.

Speaker 2: 54:09

Like you know, I might be early on in my career, but like I really don't care for accomplishing all these great big things, because what I really want to do is foster connections with a lot of good people and just do amazing work with these people. Whatever success yields after that fantastic, great. If we can take up a job with that amazing, then we create something absolutely magical. But I think the experience, for me, is a lot more key and I think by focusing on that, I think what I'm praying for is something where that can garner a momentum where it will be amazing experience after another amazing experience, and it's just like you know, big hit after big hit after big hit, every single time. It's just like you know, big hit after big hit after big hit, every single time, and it's a way of getting the thing you want without directly intending to get it, if that makes sense, because I think that's like in my head, like, yeah, obviously you do want that, but by not aiming for that, you will aim to get it.

Speaker 2: 55:09

And that's just my personal approach.

Speaker 1: 55:11

Yeah, it's that kind of building up to it, almost like making certain choices now yeah means in the future certain things should you'd hope come.

Speaker 2: 55:21

Yeah, yeah, I do understand that sorry I just wanted to say, but I think what's really important for me these days is that I try not to leave it too much to hope as well. I don't like the idea of hoping I like the idea of promise.

Speaker 2: 55:34

So, yeah, I intend, like with every idea that I want to set out to do, I try to make it a promise to myself that I would see it through, rather than hoping it just happens. And if it isn't a promise, then I will go out to the best of my ability to do it, just so that I can say that I can do it, so that eventually, when the right pair of eyes does eventually come along and they do see it, I can say that I've done it, I've got the evidence to prove it. And when someone sees it and there's a value in it, then they will be willing to invest in it, to then do what I'm doing much bigger and much better.

Speaker 1: 56:03

Yeah, yeah, I think as well. People forget that you do need to work hard behind the scenes to get to where you want to go and like you do have to put that time in and like keep those promises to yourself. And it is hard work, it is stressful, it is hard, but it will prove that in five, ten years you can take your foot off the gas a tiny bit because you've put all the hard work in and you know people will recognize you, people will come to work for you. They'll know what your work's like and what your standard's like, and it's putting all those kind of paving stones in first to get yourself to that level.

Speaker 2: 56:37

It just takes one amazing idea to have your breakthrough. It's just one idea, and that one idea has to be one of the many hundreds that you've executed. Well, but it just takes one just to get you that breakthrough. Like you know, squid game, season one, that um actress who was a model and that was her first acting debut oh, I never.

Speaker 1: 57:01

I know of squid game. I'd never um watched it fully, so I don't really know the.

Speaker 2: 57:06

That's okay, you know what I feel bad for not remembering her name.

Speaker 1: 57:09

I'm just gonna find her name now quickly this is where I need, like a jamie producer. I need someone to uh to find these things out for me oh no, I'm struggling to find the name.

Speaker 2: 57:25

Come on, there we go. Um. Jung ho yun. Jung ho yun. Uh, she played kang se byok. I'm probably not pronouncing it right, but she was um one of the contestants in um square game. That was her acting debut and she absolutely crushed it and her career just went. Or another one is that um, you know that uh, korean shooter in the olympics that became the meme yes, yeah, yeah, I can't remember again.

Speaker 2: 57:54

I know the face, but I cannot remember the name yeah, but she started getting deals in like fashion magazines and whatnot.

Speaker 2: 58:01

Um suits, you know the series, the series suits nobody on that cast was a leading name title but they became iconic. You know actors and characters within their own right because everything was just so well written and the love and passion of the story and the universe that they created in suits was so damn good that it's actually got a reboot based in la and they're going to have some of the actors reprise their role in it and really all of the actors are gonna like you know they're infamous in their own right, like everyone loves lewis lit or, to an extent, everyone loves harvey specter, and they all became iconic within their own right because of good character development. You just have to love your craft, what you just have to love your craft infinitely and be unapologetically in love with it. And when you properly and relentlessly selfishly put it out there for the world to see and you don't stop until someone sees it and they say, yes, I recognize why that is brilliant and they want to do something with it, you will get your breakthrough.

Speaker 1: 59:00

You just have to just really be absolutely unapologetic with it and just don't give up yeah, I think you're right and I also I think, again, going back to what society expects of you, I think that could come at 25, it could come at 35, could come at 40, like it could come at any point in your life, as long as you keep going. Absolutely so. How do you value yourself as a creative? I think this is quite a big question because I feel probably different to how you feel, um it's a you know, valuing yourself as a creative is a really big uphill battle.

Speaker 2: 59:36

I mean, first of all, how do you value yourself as a creative? Because I'll be interested to hear how you go about it um, I don't know that it is quite a hard.

Speaker 1: 59:48

How do I value myself? Because kind of it's on like monetary, it's on experience, it's on like understanding of your role in the world, almost in your creative world. Like, yeah, it's really hard, like it's really hard um question to answer when I've got brain fog as well. Um, but I think, yeah, like I kind of feel like I know that I'm good at composition, I know that I'm good at problem solving, I know that I'm good at these things, but it's kind of sometimes the hard thing is getting other people to value your knowledge, because they can't always see inside your brain right.

Speaker 2: 1:00:32

Yeah, I think the setback that we have is that people don't see the work it takes to create the final product.

Speaker 1: 1:00:39

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:00:40

And the conditions that we are in to make that final product as well. I mean the flash, for example. Look at that film. Look how amazing that cgi was, isn't it absolutely jaw-droppingly beautiful. It's like avatar-esque. That's sarcasm. By the way, um takes that seriously. Um, like you know, james, james Cameron spent 10 years perfecting Avatar 2, and it was worth every second to get that end result, and that's doing it right. Whereas the Flash, you just want to churn this film out because, oh, we're going to get all these toys sold and all these other things, and you just have this, this, you know, film that is just a steaming pile of. Use your imagination to finish the rest of the sentence.

Speaker 2: 1:01:24

So, um, where was I going with this? Uh, finding myself. How did I get from there? From finding myself, okay. So I think the reason why I got there was because I think, for me, the way how I value myself as a creative is that I look at the job that needs to be done and I look at the expertise, multiplied by the tactic and the work that's involved to bring the vision to life in a way where the client is happy, I'm happy and, um, you know, every hour spent working, that labor is done with a means of purpose and it's just making sure that time isn't wasted, not just for myself, but also for the client too, because I understand that the client's time is valuable and they're going to be investing a lot of money into the thing that they're asking for too, so it's just making sure that they get what they're asking for and they're happy with it. Now, that's the actual value.

Speaker 1: 1:02:20

But in terms of actually getting that value again, it's about people understanding as much as I hate to say it the creative process, because everyone has like everyone just did that in air quotes, I'll just say for everybody, because I feel like the creative process is so different for everybody and people just go oh, you're just arty, farty types, it's fine, your process is just like blah, you're away with the fairies.

Speaker 2: 1:02:45

No, we actually have to be strategic and think about things yeah, I think it should be firmly stated that the creative process is different for everyone, because the subconscious thing is that it's the same for everyone. It is not the same no, not even close, uh.

Speaker 2: 1:02:59

So I think that's why, when I try to talk to people about what it is that I do, I'm very transparent with what's involved and why the costs incur that much when producing these things because we don't just need to eat. Things are very demanding in the stuff that we do. You might like you have no idea the work that's involved to create a photorealistic asset that looks like the real thing, so that when people are watching it they think it's a live production. You know all these things, all these skills you acquire over time. It has a value to it as well, as you know, when someone has an idea, how you can actually bring it to life better than what they could have ever imagined it to be oh yeah, that's like one of the biggest values, I think is like us creatives kind of like we were saying earlier, getting into the client's minds and what the customer's gonna see, and we translate it.

Speaker 1: 1:03:55

We translate it, and they go oh shit, this is a thousand times better than what I ever thought. That's our value, really isn't it. And they go oh shit, this is a thousand times better than what I ever thought. That's our value, really isn't it?

Speaker 2: 1:04:03

and it's also what we aim for too. Like I love making my clients happy, just as anyone would, but I think the true thrill is when they're just like.

Speaker 2: 1:04:11

They say, without even realizing, like oh my god, I didn't even think this was possible yeah, that's my standard for me and, um, you know when, when they, when you give them that, that's how you kind of create that hook. But the thing is, is that when you're starting out which is my situation right now, because I only really properly started uh, you know, I don't want to say freelancing, I I have really strong sentiments with that word, because I got told by a friend that freelancer is just a code word for a corporate prostitute and ever since they said that to me I have vowed myself to never. How rude. Yeah, I mean I can kind of see why they said it, because sometimes you get people who hire freelancers and they think that they can own your time and I really don't like that and I'm not like an employee for hire that you can just bend and fall to your own will because you're still trying to figure out what is right for you.

Speaker 2: 1:05:04

It's, um, like I call myself a business owner and that's how I present myself, going forward, like I'm a business owner, I create animations for your business and when you put yourself forward that way, they then, you know, respect you a lot more because you know they understand the nuances of running a business, because they understand that you have a lot of duty to take care of. Freelancer, as great as a title as it may be, like I think. I think that kind of made me open my eyes and realize that, like you know, not everyone will understand the nuances and requirements and demands of being a freelancer.

Speaker 2: 1:05:37

By calling yourself a freelancer, I think you know, depending on how you lay yourself but anyway I in in september last year, I really started taking the reins of all things to do with business and entrepreneurialism, as I would call it. I started taking that really seriously because 2024 was a really really heavy year for me. I mean really really heavy year for me. I mean not that I want to go into too much detail, but in my personal life, like I had lost my last grandparent in a pretty traumatic way, and that was a few days after I realized that someone that I was romantically interested in at the time was in a relationship with someone else, and then she uh, ghosted and blocked me three days after my granddad's funeral. So, um, that happened.

Speaker 2: 1:06:24

They're horrible yeah, you know, it is what it is but uh, and then, like a few weeks after that, someone very close to me and my family got severely unwell and, um, they need a major surgery. And it a really, really unsurmountably stressful time because I wasn't making any money back then. I was unemployed, I wanted to get work and I realized that that was like a sucker punch from God and the biggest wake-up call that I needed to get my life together, I needed to get my career together, I need to make more money and be able to afford a comfortable living so that I can pay bills, I can afford a home and, you know, look after my family and things. Because I think that made me realize that your life can change so quickly and you can't dilly-dally. And I think, like, whilst it's been great pursuing all these ambitious, creative ideas, like sometimes life gets serious and you have to grow up, and I most definitely grew up and while fortunately you you know that level of stress, it was like, oh my God, it was so bad. I didn't see many friends during that time. I stayed in my room. I was either in bed, just like vegetating, or I was on my computer computer, just like working and getting all these things out there and just trying to make something work, and I just felt like I was just living on fumes whilst the world was crushing on me during that time. But, um, you know, fortunately, you know he made it through, surgery was a success and he's healthy and up on his feet, and you know, thank God, that he pulled a good recovery.

Speaker 2: 1:08:00

But I think, walking away from that, I realized that I never want to be in a situation where I'm alone and unprepared for a circumstance such as that, because it is going to happen at one point where everything will fall on my shoulders that's that's, that's a guaranteed fact. Going to happen at one point where everything will fall on my shoulders, that's that's, that's a guaranteed fact, and I need to bring it upon myself to be ready. And I'm not getting any younger, so I'm not wasting any time with growth, expansion and just really establishing myself as a business owner, as a creative, and providing a stellar, exemplary service to business, so that people invest in me and, in turn, I can invest in myself, in my life and my family and future family too. So that's where all of this drive kind of started. But the biggest challenge I'm finding whilst navigating through the early stages of this venture and this journey is the valuation that other people will see in me, because I can be the greatest dynamic man I can be.

Speaker 2: 1:09:03

But I think the annoying thing about business is that you're kind of like dealing with a lot of sharks in the water and they're looking for a reason and an opportunity to bite and some just enjoy the bite more than the feast. Yeah, and I think the hardest thing with that is so you know, let's say, like an animated campaign. So let's say, a brand has a phone and you want to do a cool commercial with that. So you have to think about the storyboarding, you have to think about what are the unique selling points that you're trying to sell, and will the tone be right? Will you have the right soundtrack? Will you have to write sound effects? Then you have to think about the 3d modeling and then you have to think about the texturing, and then you have to think about the animation. You have to think about the rendering, you have to think about the compositing, the um motion graphics that could possibly be involved in that, and then you have to go to the amend. So you have to do some things over and over again.

Speaker 2: 1:10:00

It's a long and drooling process and these, you know, projects are in, you know, the four figure range, five figure range, and that's normal. In fact, a four figure range for a project like that is normally on the cheaper end of the scale. It should be more in the five figure range and you know, quoting those numbers is something that I'm aiming to do, and to do so without hesitation. But it's more about whether they look at me and they will take me seriously when I say those numbers, because what do they see when they look at me? And you know I can't ignore the fact that there is casual racism in the world towards south asians and being a man with brown skin, that's the first thing people are going to see. If I were to say to someone be like, okay, if you want an animated film, I will quote you 15,000 pounds for the full scale of production, from beginning to finish. But we will take care of everything. You just work with us to make sure that the idea that's in your head will bring it to life, because we know exactly how to do it and do it well.

Speaker 2: 1:11:00

But if they just see a man with brown skin, they're going to look at me and think I'm not going to throw that kind of money to a brown man like, how do I know I'm going to get that worth? And you know it's like I've got this uphill battle of combating this. You know, stereotype or this idea, this, this false idea that you know brown people are, you know, somewhat cheaper in their value and worth just overall, and it bleeds into, like you know, the professional life, the service, etc. Etc. And so, like you know, I'm having to look at ways on how to create a business that is under. You know, I'm looking at rebranding my business and putting it under a studio name so that there's more inclination for people to invest in it, because they're not going to invest in an ethic name.

Speaker 2: 1:11:44

That's just how the dice rolls and it sucks and I could sit here and cry about it, but I'm not going to sit here and cry about it.

Speaker 2: 1:11:50

It's just more about trotting up, going forward with it and turning that name into a household statement, because all they see is the art and it piques curiosity about the individual behind it.

Speaker 2: 1:12:00

That's the only way. How you're going to appeal to the masses and to the higher ups is to speak their language without letting yourself be seen, and let that let the words and the message of that language you're speaking, that they understand, be such a piece of music to their ears that they just want more and more and more. And then when you do the grand reveal of who you are, then you have already earned their trust, because it's the way how you kind of seduce those people into being in their favor and in their good books. That's the way how I see it and that's the way how I'm approaching it and navigate it, because deep down, I will never truly know. I will never truly know if they do generally see me as a working professional with value or if they just see me as a brown person and nothing more than that. Um, I'm never gonna know and I will never truly know. That's always going to find a way to cut through it and prove to the world that I am more than just my skin.

Speaker 1: 1:13:06

Yeah, I cannot say any more than what you did, because as a white woman, I don't fully understand the microaggressions and micro racism that you get and I can never understand that.

Speaker 1: 1:13:22

But from a business point of view, I did do a business name because then, similarly to you, I could create it however I wanted, whoever I wanted, to be department heads or whatever. However I choose to expand it, people know your business name and then they're kind of like you say you kind of seduce them with your business and then you turn up and you're like, hey, cool, blah, blah, blah, you know you do your job, you do your job. Well, they call you again and I do think, like, unfortunately, in this industry, in the creative industry, it is, it shouldn shouldn't the racism shouldn't be there, but it definitely is because there's not people. There's certain privilege to people doing internships, there's certain privilege to, um, even getting on courses, all sorts of things that you, I'm aware of, but also I don't get it on the same level as you because I'm not you. Does that make sense? Yeah, is that a sensitive enough answer, because I feel like you.

Speaker 2: 1:14:28

I think, I think you. You responded beautifully with that.

Speaker 1: 1:14:32

It's such a uh delicate subject because, like you said, you're never gonna know if they are judging you for the color of your skin or your ability to do your job yeah and I'm never gonna know what it's gonna feel like to be you and you know vice versa, but I think it's it's such a shame that the creative industry is still, in 2025, not as welcoming as it should be.

Speaker 2: 1:15:01

I don't think it's actually the creative industry. When I was talking about that, I'm just talking about just the world in general. I don't think it's just unique to the creative industry. I think, in fact, I think in some degree, the creative industry is actually better in some regard. Yeah, because we work in the business of inspiration. We create things that stick with people so that it inspires them to make and pursue their own dreams, and you know, we wouldn't be thriving if we don't aim to inspire, right?

Speaker 2: 1:15:30

Yeah, and when I articulated everything I said, I just want to make it very clear that, um, it's not a criticism and a skepticism of people. It's just an unknown worry that I have to face because I don't hold it against people. It's just that I have to make a quiet prayer to myself in my head that when I speak to someone, they see me for a human being and not for just what I look like, and I think, in in that sort of like framework, it is something that I think a lot of people will obviously secretly wish for deep down, because everyone just wants to be treated human and everyone wants to be treated with value and with respect, and I guess with careers and creativity and stuff. It's a snowball effect, like. You just have to keep that snowball rolling and then it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and, um, it gets to a point where, um, you know it's it's about demand, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 1:16:26

So, yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, it does suck that it exists, but I think it's not about how to combat it but how to rise above it, because I think if you're able to kind of like rise above it, then you get to be in a really good position to show just how ridiculous the notion of racism really is, because true value is deep within a human's ability, not what someone looks like or where they come from, it's just common sense. Just to say that, uh, but I think the um, subconscious you know learnings that we all have and carry not everyone's is going to have that self-awareness to learn how to rise above it. Yeah, it's, it's an unfair world, but if you work within the reality of the unfair world, I still think there are fruits to be worn with the labor that you pull. So, yeah, I mean, it is what it is, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 1:17:18

yeah, and also you probably don't know how many people you're inspiring by your skate um youtube channel and by, like you building this brand and this business yourself.

Speaker 1: 1:17:28

Like you might be inspiring the next generation of 3d artists, like you know, you never know, and I think that's also the nice thing as well. As, like if you're able to get out into the community and kind of chat to other like teenagers maybe they're sometimes a difficult crowd but like if you're able to get into colleges or unis and like go and do talks and stuff, I think it's a really precious thing and like that's for all of us creatives. Because I don't know about you, I had no idea that I could do this job when I was like 14. I had no idea that this was a job and I think I'd like absolutely piss myself if I thought that I'd be podcasting for, like, do you know what I mean? Like, who knew that this was going to be a job? So I think, take on that role of being an inspiration to others as well. You know, taking that drive and that kind of that business mind and going come on, we can all do it.

Speaker 2: 1:18:24

I. I think the thing about inspiration is, um, I this is gonna sound weird, but I actually don't want to think about how many people I would inspire, because that doesn't weird you out. It doesn't weird me out. I think it scares me because I worry about that getting to my head and affecting my character. I think of inspiration as a bonus.

Speaker 2: 1:18:46

All I care about is getting the job done and getting to get out there and letting that make people feel. All I care about is making someone feel something with the stuff I create. That is it. Anything after that is purely out of my hands. But if it's for the better, more power to them. Because if I can help someone get out of something or help them realize the power within themselves to get out of it, I'm all for it, because I know what it's like to be at rock bottom. I know what it's like to feel horrific and doubt yourself and feel like you are your own enemy, or to just feel stuck.

Speaker 2: 1:19:22

But the thing is is that we as human beings are very powerful individuals that can make anything happen, because there are other human beings that are making things happen and the evidence is out there. We are all human and we are all capable of doing things doesn't matter. Well, I guess it doesn't matter to a degree where we are, what we come from, what we're born with. I mean, obviously there are limitations to everything. But I think, like you know, as much as I don't want to sound cheesy and generic because it you know, now I'm getting, now my autistic brain is getting a bit too technical with it but the point is, is that, um, I think the limitations are also challenges, because that's what we learn as artists and creators.

Speaker 2: 1:20:01

It's like how do we make the most out of something very little? How do we create something so profound with just a handful of resources? And it's these sort of challenges that we try and solve to then find a way to move upwards and, you know, unlock new things. Apply it to what we do, then take what we do and make it better. And when you have a goal in sight that you are striving towards and you find challenges along the way, you learn so much more in a week than just by looking at next opportunity then look for another learning opportunity, then looking for another opportunity. Stop looking and just look at what's directly in front of you and just figure out how to get there and just keep yourself moving in a direction of momentum that you want to go towards and want to be happy with going with, and just go, yeah, you know, just put one foot in front of the other. Just yeah, just go somewhere. Even if you don't know where you're going, at least you're going so on.

Speaker 1: 1:20:54

That that was already quite inspirational, to be honest. But I've got a final question for you. Go for it. What inspires you? Now you can answer. I've had people answer family, there's certain career things, there's art. However, you, whatever inspires you, what inspires?

Speaker 2: 1:21:15

you. Having my own place to live and having my own family that I can love abundantly, that's all I want, and to have that means to earn it, and to earn it means to afford it, and to afford it means that I need to be rich, not just financially and fiscally, but also in soul, in character and in love, because all I truly want is my own home with my own people that I can love purely and abundantly, because that, to me, is pure happiness. And with that happiness, you know, it doesn't matter where I go in the world. I could just go to asda and do grocery shopping, but if it's with that special person, then that's winning to me, because even that would be an adventure of a lifetime.

Speaker 2: 1:21:56

When I have that, everything else just feels like, would just feel easy, and there would always be an element of joy and emotional security to it, because I think there will be a better system in place for me to be able to tackle and overcome these things and find a solution. So, yeah, great to have something worth living for. Um, I think that is probably my biggest source of inspiration and it's like I will be willing to do whatever it takes if it means building my own business, traveling the world, creating these big, ambitious, crazy things. For someone to look at me and deem me worthy enough to want to share a life with me and build a home so that we can just keep doing the things that we are inspired to do.

Speaker 1: 1:22:44

So that's, probably that's that's a lovely answer and it's also a very driven answer because I have listening to you talk. You're so focused and driven on getting your goals and I believe you'll get there. And it just everybody's yeah, fingers crossed. But everybody's journey is different and colorful in their own way. And thank you so much for being so vulnerable with me today as well, because I really appreciate it and I think I hope that people listening will find inspiration in your story as well and we can all overcome stuff and we can use it to drive ourselves into the next stage of our business or the next stage of life or to better ourselves.

Speaker 1: 1:23:26

And I think you're doing amazing work and keep going and that's all like. I'm just. I'm so like hopeful for you to keep going and I'm like I'm just trying to send you lots of like healing energy get, get going, guys, get going. Thank you so much. I think it's been such a great chat to to have with you today and I think you're it's so special that you're so driven and just keep that up. But also don't get too stressed that you feel like the world's on top of you, because I've been there too and that's hideous.

Speaker 2: 1:23:56

I'm. I'm not gonna lie to you. Stress is a silent killer and, uh, I'm very scared about it killing me. I'm actually reading a book, this one.

Speaker 2: 1:24:07

It's called when the body says no, the body says no to cost of hidden stress, and I can't bring myself to read any further because I am so scared that it would apply to my life. And, as a result, I have started eating vegetables for lunch, and so it's going great. Vegetables are great. I highly recommend it. All you just need is a cucumber and a carrot, and that alone will do wonders for the rest of your life. Yeah, no, I'm definitely learning about the value of health mental and physical and emotional and you know, know, if you have a healthy body, you will be driven to.

Speaker 1: 1:24:44

You know, do all the productive things you're doing way, way better because you've got that longevity yeah, so yeah, yeah, I'm with you and that book is on my to read list as well. So you know, as a stressful little bugger as well, I'm stressed about reading it.

Speaker 2: 1:24:59

So far, I can say it's a beautiful read. I definitely highly recommend it. Um, yeah, I gotta I would talk about all the ideas and things that I want to do. Um, but I don't want to overwhelm this episode so much like I think I've got to keep some things quiet and to myself yes, yes, that is.

Speaker 1: 1:25:18

One trick is keep some stuff to yourself and then just let them out. Let them out when they're ready. But what were you going to say?

Speaker 2: 1:25:27

I will say one thing. So one of the 3D projects that I am trying to look to execute this year would be to rebuild my grandfather's house from scratch and put it in CGI, try to put it in unreal engine to make it a vr map that we can explore. Um, I've got no idea what challenges lay ahead of me, although I know that's a very ambitious one, probably the most ambitious one I've done to date yet, and I'm going to do it as photorealistic and accurate to the real thing as possible. So I've got over a thousand image references of the home because, uh, we it was in his world that we had to sell it and we had it in our family for almost 50 years. Wow, it was probably.

Speaker 2: 1:26:10

That was one of the hardest things that we had to do empty house that we've known all our life and just be barren, empty rooms, because that's when you know that you're saying the final goodbye. Yes, so I'm gonna be executing that project some point this year, hopefully once I get some time, and you know, document the journey of um, creating it, how I go about making it, all the images that are there as well, and just reflecting, like the journey of grief and whatnot, too? That's a project that I'm looking to get up and running at some point, so do please keep your eyes out for that yeah, 100, but thank you so much for joining me on the podcast you are very welcome.

Speaker 2: 1:26:52

I hope this has been a favorable episode for you. That's my only wish for you.